"Blazing Trails and Breaking Norms: African American Women's Legacy in the Fire Service.

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[00:00:00] D'Lisa: I'd like to welcome everyone to another broadcast of our African-American Women in Firefighting podcast series hosted by [00:00:15] the African American Firefighter Museum of Los Angeles, California. Today I'm acting as guest host. My name is Delisa Davies, retired captain for the Los Angeles City Fire Department, and I will be [00:00:30] interviewing the second female firefighter on the job. retired. Firefighter paramedic Karen Slider.
[00:00:39] Karen: Hello.
[00:00:40] D'Lisa: We're gonna, and we're gonna talk about, her journey [00:00:45] into the fire Karen, give us a little history about, yourself prior to the fire service.
[00:00:53] Karen: Hello
[00:00:53] everyone. Karen Slider here. Before I came on the job as a female [00:01:00] firefighter, I'm female, obviously. I worked in a nursing position at Kaiser Permanente. I was an na orderly there. basically what a na orderly does is more extensive stuff.[00:01:15]
[00:01:15] Then a nurse's attendant, they like put in Foley catheters, they, order supplies.
[00:01:20] They pretty much are like the gophers for the doctors and the nurses when they need something. but I got laid off and when I got laid off, soon after I [00:01:30] got laid off, I got divorced and I had two little boys who were looking to me to support him. And all I had was. The background as a nursing aid orderly [00:01:45] because I had gotten married when I was very young.
[00:01:46] I was like 17 when I got married. So a friend of mine named Marsha who worked, who I met when I worked at the hospital at Kaiser, told me that the fire department was hiring and I went and [00:02:00] worked out like they had a workout program like it at night. After working hours, like if you got off work at five, you could go there from six to nine and work out.
[00:02:09] So I went there and I worked out and put in an interest card and, basically if I hadn't been [00:02:15] unemployed, I probably wouldn't have been a firefighter, would've stayed in the nursing position, probably would've excelled there cuz I had planned on being a nurse anesthetist. But that's my background pretty much.
[00:02:27] D'Lisa: When you said that you [00:02:30] participated in the, training program, was that the Lake Street program that they had set up for women?
[00:02:37] Karen: Westlake, the training facility was open to everybody, but what had happened was in [00:02:45] 1980s, the fire department had been sued for discrimination, and so they had a consent decree.
[00:02:53] that
[00:02:53] stated they had to hire women and minorities. So women and minorities were welcome to come to [00:03:00] Westlake and work out because becoming a firefighter involved strength and it involved grip.
[00:03:06] So they gave you free access to their facility and after, You thought you were strong enough, then you could take a [00:03:15] test and if you pass the test, then they would put you in a program. And that was only for women. It wasn't for the men. And I think it was only for the women. It was because there were only, I think, five women on the job then.
[00:03:26] And I think you were one of 'em, one of, I know you were [00:03:30] one of 'em, but there were only like five women on the job when I applied. So it was geared basically on getting women to. Be qualified, strong enough, to look for the best candidates. That's what the Westlake training facility was for.
[00:03:43] And it was for like [00:03:45] about six weeks. And then you went into a pre-training academy where they paid you like $900 a month to work out, to read books, to learn all about the fire department, all about the tools and the equipment, knots, ladders. [00:04:00] And then you get went into the drill academy, the drill tower.
[00:04:03] If you pass the test and the physical agility, so that's the Westlake training facility. That's how they prepared people when I was coming on to become firefighters [00:04:15] because they had to, they needed minorities and women.
[00:04:20] D'Lisa: Okay. okay. Karen, I know that you said that you were divorced, with two boys, and I wanted to know what challenge you, [00:04:30] you had to face in, balancing, the workload that you faced with the fire service and how our schedule worked and your family obligations.
[00:04:43] Karen: I was pretty fortunate.[00:04:45] I come from a very large family. I. I have, there's six of us and four of us are girls. And then I have my mother also who potty trained and pretty much, raised her grandkids until they were able to go into preschool or [00:05:00] kindergarten. She pretty much started all of our kids off with her training.
[00:05:04] So when I came on the job and she encouraged me not to give it up cuz there were times when I wanted to quit. It was so hard. She took care of my sons while I worked. [00:05:15] I didn't have to worry about them at all. I could work as much overtime as I wanted. I just had to make sure that the supplies were at home.
[00:05:24] I'd go home clean on my four day, i'd, do laundry. I [00:05:30] go grocery shopping, and like you, spend as much quality time as I could with my kids. What was great about our job is we only work 10 days a month. So even if I decided to work, one day more I, we worked.
[00:05:44] [00:05:45] Three days on and off, and then we're off for four days. If I just worked one of those days on my four day, that was extra money in our pockets for us to do stuff. I love the fact that we could go anywhere. We can go to Disneyland, Knottsberry Farm. I took my kids skiing, water skiing, [00:06:00] camping and snow skiing, on vacations, on cruises.
[00:06:04] I did all of that because the fire department allowed me the schedule to do that because I could do it off season and um, it was great. It was [00:06:15] great for me. If I would've had a babysitting issue, it would've been a problem. And I know that was a problem, not only for single females who were raising kids, but for some of the males too.
[00:06:26] They were raising their children too.
[00:06:29] D'Lisa: [00:06:30] Exactly. I remember, I think it was Joanne had. Two girls. You had two boys, and I had my daughter and we were asked to develop the, policies for, maternity leave and things like [00:06:45] that. And then, one of the captains, once he found out that I hadn't been married, then I got removed from the committee.
[00:06:51] But you and Joanne. Actually finished that criteria. and what were your thoughts? Yeah, what were your thoughts [00:07:00] on at least getting something started for women?
[00:07:05] Karen: I had always had high expectations for the department when we came on. I always felt like once they saw what women could do, [00:07:15] what we brought to the table, that we will be valued. So to develop a program where we could even share our workload, because I think we even tried to introduce working 12 hour shifts because
[00:07:27]
[00:07:28] Karen: Some of us were married and we didn't need a [00:07:30] 24 hour paycheck. We just needed a 12 hour paycheck and the benefits could be split or determined who would get 'em depending on the need, but that never went anywhere. I was proud to be on that committee until they started I doing superficial [00:07:45] stuff.
[00:07:45] I think the only reason they implemented the maternity program is because they knew women were on the job and we were going to be having babies.
[00:07:53] But when it came came to a shared workload or shared benefits of [00:08:00] truly making the workplace friendly for single parents on both sides, they weren't for that.
[00:08:07] D'Lisa: You know what, yes. To,bothered me at the time was that once you found out that you were pregnant, it was your [00:08:15] responsibility to find a spot. And we were like, no, that's your responsibility as the employer.
[00:08:21] And we actually had to fight them on that. And I think it was your persistence and Joanne's persistence [00:08:30] is what got us over that hump, but, It was just, that was one of the challenging things was just trying to get that criteria going. But were there other challenges other than the childcare issues that you had to face when you were, Starting your career in [00:08:45] fire service?
[00:08:46] Karen: like the fact that we looked like women and we wanted to celebrate the fact that we were women. So some of the things we wanted were minor, like, you know, to be able to ear wear earrings if we were on special duty. to [00:09:00] be able to wear a skirt, if we went to a funeral to have a part of our uniform, just changing the uniform was the only thing that, I could think of that pretty much showed people outside the department that women were [00:09:15] here.
[00:09:17] D'Lisa: You know what's crazy about that is, it took, the commissioners to fight for us to get the uniforms. altered so that we can, have a female style.
[00:09:29] And they were [00:09:30] actually receptive cuz I brought up the military because it didn't make any sense. The military had uniforms that we could use. Yeah. Why could we use those? And she just told me, go get one and bring it to me and we'll make it happen. And she did, [00:09:45] but it was just things like that. But do you remember any other conditions? especially that affected the women of color that we had to, that you had to deal with on the job.
[00:09:58] Karen: Just the [00:10:00] racism. they didn't want black men on the job, let alone black women. and the fact that
[00:10:08] I was from a housemaker, a homemaker's position. I pretty much [00:10:15] was married very early and I was very traditional in my beliefs about where men and women should be, so when I wasn't welcomed or when I wasn't treated fairly, it was an eye opener for me.
[00:10:28] So then I just wanted [00:10:30] to fight for all the women that were coming on and that were being discriminated against. And I was asked by the Stentorian, which is a black organization that deals with racism to talk to the Board of Fire Commissioners. [00:10:45] And because some women were being treated unfairly in the drill tower, and they wanted me to tell 'em about my experience.
[00:10:53] My experience in the drill tower was one of [00:11:00] systematic torture. They did everything they could think of legally to get me to quit, and I refused to, not because I was prideful, but because I had two little boys who needed to eat and [00:11:15] who were growing and I couldn't just quit because What kind of example would that set for them?
[00:11:20] That's the challenge I had to overcome.
[00:11:24] D'Lisa: Did you feel that you had, allies or mentors in the department, during [00:11:30] your time on, especially in the early years?
[00:11:32] Karen: Everywhere I looked when I thought I was alone, I had a cheering section. When I was in the drill tower and they tried to eliminate me by making us do [00:11:45] something that no other person in no other group had to do in the drill tower. It was the guys that cheered me on that were with me, that knew what I could do every day, cuz they were doing the same thing I was doing when I got out into the field.
[00:11:57] It was people that had the struggle before, like [00:12:00] Arnette Hartsfield and you and the. Firefighters and the Stentorians that came to my aid and let me know that I wasn't alone and that I wasn't going to quit, they wouldn't allow it. They wouldn't allow anyone [00:12:15] to abuse me. You were one of those who showed up at Fire Station 66 when I decided I wanted to expand my knowledge in the fire service and work in the areas where I was raised and when I met discrimination there, you showed up to let 'em [00:12:30] know she's not alone and if she is too much of a lady to let you know that I'm here to be her voice for her.
[00:12:38] Arnette Hartsfield showed up at 66 as to let them know I am under his protection. Gloria [00:12:45] Allwood. Allred showed up. I had so many people that were rooting me on because it got to the point where Kaiser had called me back. They said, we'll give you a raise. We're sorry we laid you off. but I knew that they [00:13:00] would continue to be laying people off, and I didn't want to be in that next group either, and the fire department doesn't lay people off.
[00:13:06] So I stuck it out because I had kids, not because I wanted to, because I had to.
[00:13:12] D'Lisa: Had to. Yeah, had to, you know what was [00:13:15] amazing Anette, he showed up at my station and he said, just check it in. And I'm looking at him like, who in the, who is he?
[00:13:21] But every station I went to, he showed up and I was just amazed that he actually. Knew my name, where I was, the whole [00:13:30] shot, but he had been following me and I, and then I hear that he did the same thing to you. And I was like, oh, okay. Cause I felt that I was alone for a long time and I'm not sure if that was because of the culture or [00:13:45] what, but I felt alone and I was like, I got my family as backup, so I'm good.
[00:13:50] But I'm glad that.
[00:13:53] Karen: I had
[00:13:54] D'Lisa: I had you
[00:13:54] recognized,
[00:13:55] Karen: I had you.
[00:13:57] D'Lisa: yeah. You recognized that you had allies and then too, it was like I [00:14:00] wasn't going nowhere and I told 'em collateral damage was something, especially military collateral damage. They didn't know what they was asking for. But what was the, what was the best part of being a firefighter for you?
[00:14:13] Karen: The best part of being a firefighter [00:14:15] for me was the way little girls would light up when they saw me
[00:14:19] me It was so cool because I know, just like I did as a little girl growing up, that the thought of being a firefighter had never entered [00:14:30] their minds until they saw me.
[00:14:34] D'Lisa: It was crazy. I remember, driving the rig, especially the truck Right? Driving the truck park it and this That's a lady. Yeah. Been a lady all my life. [00:14:45] But was funny because they never thought about it, but. They kept us so isolated Cuz you were in the valley. I was in South Central and it was like they, they wouldn't let us work together for some reason.
[00:14:59] Karen: even a whole [00:15:00] team of us. If we got hired and there were too many women at a station, they would send us someplace else.
[00:15:05] D'Lisa: Exactly. and I didn't understand that. And it was like, yeah, but now it's when like going to the store, sir, I need to go to the store. Why sir? I need to go to the store. [00:15:15] Why sir? I need to go to the store. Oh, okay. and he was like, dude, you just don't understand.
[00:15:23] I need to go to the store.
[00:15:24] That kind of thing. And it's
[00:15:25] Karen: your business.
[00:15:25] D'Lisa: a, yeah, and if there was another female, we wouldn't [00:15:30] you
[00:15:30] Karen: wouldn't have that
[00:15:30] D'Lisa: you could, yeah. You wouldn't have that conversation. It was weird. But, what were some of the other challenges that you faced, especially as a black female, other than, the racism and things like that.
[00:15:41] Was there anything else? You had to deal with [00:15:45]
[00:15:45] Karen: As a black female just being accepted. Everywhere I went, every station I went to, I had to prove myself every station.
[00:15:53] D'Lisa: Yep.
[00:15:55] Karen: And when you get S old and you've been on the job a little while. You [00:16:00] get tired of proving yourself. And I remember this one incident, I was at this one fire station.
[00:16:06] I was the, I had the most seniority than anybody in the fire station, captains included. And this one new captain decided [00:16:15] that he wanted to give me a rookie's job, and we had boots in the department who had less time than anybody else on the on, on the job or in the station who didn't know how to do the job he was asking me to do, which is part of training when I came on.[00:16:30]
[00:16:30] It is something that the boots did. They did fire prevention, they did hydrants, inspections, they did all the hard work so that the people that were seasoned that had time on could just go, and have a nice easy day. he wanted me to be fire prevention coordinator, and [00:16:45] I was already a firefighter paramedic.
[00:16:46] That meant I had to go on fires and I had to go on rescue. So whatever alarm came in, I was on the rig going. And on top of that, he wanted me to schedule inspections for our district, which was Hollywood. And it's [00:17:00] very big. It includes high rise, it includes, single family dwellings, it included. Anne Mae Apartments with, pre 33 buildings, industrial buildings.
[00:17:14] It had a [00:17:15] whole wide range of responsibilities that you had to inspect to make sure the people weren't gonna start any fires. And I told my captain, I said I got a lot on my plate being a firefighter and a paramedic running calls all day. I don't think I wanna be [00:17:30] fire prevention coordinator.
[00:17:32] And I said this in front of some guys that were working overtime, and they looked at me like I had said something that shouldn't be said. And my captain said, Karen, I really need you to do this. I said, That's a bun, that's a a rookie's job. I said, [00:17:45] get a rookie to do it. I'm not doing that.
[00:17:47] And all the guys like, gasp. And then he said, Karen, I'm giving you a direct order to become fire prevention coordinator. I said, okay, I'm outta here.
[00:17:58] I started [00:18:00] putting on, transfer requests on his desk so often every day. And he'd be telling me, you're not going there. You don't have enough time for that.
[00:18:06] I said, I talked to the chief and he said, I can go anywhere I want to go. Which was true cuz I had a direct line with Chief B Matri
[00:18:14] D'Lisa: and he looked out for [00:18:15] me. I could call him and invite him for dinner and he'd show up. That's how cool he was. He showed up to help my captain with his interview for Chief because I asked him to.
[00:18:28] Karen: My captain was blown away.[00:18:30]
[00:18:31] D'Lisa: He was actually a godsend for women,
[00:18:33] Karen: Oh yeah, he was
[00:18:33] amazing.
[00:18:34] D'Lisa: that. Yeah, he was amazing. Now, what was the hardest part or the hardest job that you faced when you were on the department? [00:18:45]
[00:18:46] Karen: The hardest job I faced when I was on the department was working at Fire Station 57.
[00:18:54] D'Lisa: Ooh.
[00:18:55] Karen: the hospitals were closing down and the [00:19:00] people around in the neighborhood were using the paramedics like they were a taxi service
[00:19:05] D'Lisa: Yep.
[00:19:06] Karen: and we ran day and night. And there were some people that were afraid of some of the people we went [00:19:15] on that I was riding with who thought, just because black people talk loud, they were gonna beat 'em up.
[00:19:23] So I was educating guys on the crew about black people and black culture and black behavior, and [00:19:30] I was educating the public on when not to call 911 and when to call 9 1 1.
[00:19:37] It was hard. I was tired. I went home. Sometimes I forgot that I wasn't on the engine. I would be running lights. I would be so [00:19:45] tired going home.
[00:19:47] That was the hardest job I had was working at Fire Station 57 as a new paramedic and firefighter running day and night,
[00:19:58] D'Lisa: 57. So it was like [00:20:00] 46. It was like, we had two rescues, 800 a paramedic rescue
[00:20:03] Karen: it still wasn't enough.
[00:20:05] D'Lisa: it wasn't, and we ran 30 runs a day or more every day. Every day. And I [00:20:15] loved it cuz I was in the neighborhood, families, all that.
[00:20:17] it was actually cool for me. I did not care. And it was just, I don't know it, like I said, I'm a little hyper sometimes, so that kind of kept me distracted. But What is one of the [00:20:30] most, heartbreaking incidents that you went
[00:20:34] Karen: Ooh, there's so many. But I guess one of the worst ones was a little girl who got ran over,
[00:20:43] she was playing on [00:20:45] her little big wheel in her parking structure and somebody backed over and they didn't know.
[00:20:51] and
[00:20:51] when we got there, her mother was holding and her mother was covered in blood and we were working on her and I got her in the back, got her to [00:21:00] Children's Hospital and the doctor just told me that there was nothing they were they could do and that her parents should come in and say goodbye.
[00:21:13] D'Lisa: Sometimes I don't. I [00:21:15] don't understand their lack of empathy, but from what I recognize with the paramedics and working as an E M T, as long as you're doing something, they're, there's hope for [00:21:30] them. And then, It's like they don't blame you because you were at least trying and then when we drop 'em off at the hospital, it was a totally different story.
[00:21:39] But yeah.
[00:21:41] Karen: I, I just couldn't get the fact that I got her there breathing and he [00:21:45] wasn't gonna do anything that, that was too much for me to comprehend.
[00:21:51] D'Lisa: That's crazy.
[00:21:52] Karen: And then there was another guy who
[00:21:55] had assaulted his wife. All, they were traveling across the state. [00:22:00] And by the time he called 9 1 1, when we got to her, she was in the car and there were two little kids in the back seat. And they hadn't, they didn't say anything. They were completely quiet while we were trying to get her mother, their mother out the car.
[00:22:13] And she was spasming [00:22:15] because, he had hit her so hard. She had brain damage, so she was posturing. It was hard to get her out the car.
[00:22:23] So that was a hard one. Taking care of her while being angry with him at the same time and thinking about what the kids [00:22:30] had to go through all the way while they were traveling across town, watching their mama get assaulted by their dad.
[00:22:35] D'Lisa: and they don't understand that's all part of P PTs D. And it took a discussion, actually, the argument with the chief to [00:22:45] get them to understand that's all part of PTSD to repetitively see. Or experience, incidents like that. if you had to do it all over again, would you?
[00:22:59] Karen: [00:23:00] Absolutely. Absolutely. I remember when I was going through paramedic training and the doctor was showing us how to do c certain different procedures on little kids who, may be emergency operations,putting in chest tubes or something like that, [00:23:15] or IVs or something like that. And then she says, you might not hit the right spot.
[00:23:19] You might miss but if you don't try, the kid's gonna die. For sure. And if you miss [00:23:30] it and you get it wrong, it's practice for the next one you save.
[00:23:35] So that's what helped me to cope with all the stuff that I see. I consider the failures, the practice for the next ones [00:23:45] that I could save.
[00:23:47] D'Lisa: So in closing, is there anything else that you would like to add?
[00:23:54] Karen: Yeah, I'd like to add that th I wrote a book about my life, and especially my [00:24:00] adventures on the fire department, and it's called 31 Benning Place, and you can find it on Amazon as an ebook. And it's 31 B e n i n g place [00:24:15] by Karen Lasley Slider. That's all I'd like to add. If you wanna know more about my adventures, read my book.
[00:24:22] Okay.
[00:24:24] D'Lisa: And what would you say to any, especially young African-American females [00:24:30] that wanna come in, or males that want to enter the fire service? what would your advice be?
[00:24:37] Karen: My advice would be that anyone who does not take advantage [00:24:45] of this career, who has an inkling of being able to do it. Is gonna be having a harder time in life. This is a great career. It provides a great [00:25:00] salary, it provides great benefits, medical benefits, and It supplies you with a retirement after you get finished working.
[00:25:10] This is a great career. This is a great life that is offered to people [00:25:15] who choose to be heroes cuz that's what we are. People look at us as heroes because we do what other people don't wanna do.
[00:25:21] We run in the fires when people are running out. It's a great career. i'd encourage anybody to do it and take advantage of all the [00:25:30] resources to make them successful like you, Delisa. Thank
[00:25:33] you.
[00:25:35] D'Lisa: Okay. I'd like to thank you for joining us in our podcast of the African American [00:25:45] females in firefighting, presented by the African American Firefighter Museum of Los Angeles, California.
[00:25:51] Karen: Remember to visit the African-American Firefighter Museum at 1401 Central Avenue in Los [00:26:00] Angeles, situated at the corner of 14th and Central, just across the street from the Coca-Cola bottling plant. The museum warmly welcomes visitors every Sunday from one to 4:00 [00:26:15] PM. For more information, you can reach us at 2 1 3.
[00:26:21] 7 4 4 1 7 3 0. Thank you for tuning in and being a part of our journey, celebrating [00:26:30] African American women in Fire service. Stay tuned for more remarkable stories and experiences.